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Armed Edgewood School Administrators

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John Beagle View Drop Down
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    Posted: Aug 15 2013 at 10:15am
Edgewood City Schools became the first SW Ohio school district to allow administrators to carry firearms. While no administrators have passed the additional training classes (in addition to conceal carry) required to carry, there could be a day in the near future where there will be armed school staff.

Will Edgewood students be safer than Monroe against school shootings? 
Should Monroe pass such a policy?

Arming teachers as a way to improve student safety became a topic of debate in the wake of the Sandy Hook school shootings in December in Newtown, Conn. Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones made headlines when he pushed for armed personnel in schools, and threatened to pull his support from local school levy campaigns if no districts put that proposal in action.

Jones applauded Edgewood's new policy and said he expects more districts to follow suit.

"I support it 100 percent. They should have done it a long time ago. I wonder what took them so long," said Jones, who increased sheriff deputy patrols around county schools last year. "They're the first one in this region to do it. But what I'm hearing is there's more coming."

Board member Jim Miller said that numerous school shooting incidents, including the one at Sandy Hook tragedy, prompted the board to take action.

"After a number of incidents with schools and kids being the target of violence, we thought an extra precaution should be taken to protect our kids," Miller said.

Source: Eric Robinette, Dayton Daily News
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zapp2525 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 15 2013 at 11:33am
Just place a police officer at the schools, one that has been trained to protect, not some teacher with remedial training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 3:12pm
I am a school board member and a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution. But I can't begin to express just how bad an idea I believe it is to have teachers or administrators carrying guns in school. Because sooner or later a crazed students is likely to end up with that gun and doing something horrible with it.

Zap is exactly right. If we feel we must have the protection of firearms in our buildings, then hire a police officer to be that person. They are trained and know the job really well, letting our teachers and administrators focus on education.


Tom Birdwell - Opinions written here are mine alone, and may not reflect the views of other school board members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Beagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 4:00pm
1. Will Edgewood students be safer than Monroe against school shootings? 
2. Should Monroe pass such a policy?

Based upon Zapp's comments
1. No
2. No

Based on Tom's:
1. No
2. No

The no's have it so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_Steele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 4:26pm
I'm on the no's side completely too. It's basically creating a situation where there could be more school shootings by increasing the number of guns in a student's vicinity. The likelihood of a school shooting is already very small but I fear that arming teachers could make it higher.

Besides with the obscene expectations we have on our teachers already, I'd be hesitant to add "carry a loaded weapon with you at all times and if necessary shoot and kill one of your students" to them. 

Also, from a different point of view, I thought I had read a lot about how insurance companies were refusing to cover armed teachers. So it could raise costs in an already budget cutting world. http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/get-schooled/2013/jul/08/armed-educator-higher-liability-insurance-or-no-in/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_Steele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 4:27pm
What is the difference in safety levels right now between Edgewood and Monroe? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Matt_Steele Matt_Steele wrote:

 
Besides with the obscene expectations we have on our teachers already, I'd be hesitant to add "carry a loaded weapon with you at all times and if necessary shoot and kill one of your students" to them.



I don't pretend that I have the knowledge or experience of our teachers, but when our two kids were about junior high age, I told my wife several time that it wouldn't matter how much they paid me, I would not go into a classroom with 30 13 year old kids, even if they let me bring a gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClarkWestern1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2013 at 8:55pm
Well, we haven't had anyone try to make a hood ornament out of our police within a couple miles of our high school but other than that I'd bet Edgewood and Monroe are similar security-wise. And whether you agree or disagree with the policy allowing TRAINED administrators to carry firearms I guess my response is "At least they're doing SOMETHING" Sitting around saying we should have officers in every school when the budgetary reality is that ain't gonna happen is useless. Chances are we may never get anyone to get the required training  or want to carry-but the fact that the board was actually able to put something concrete on the table is more than most districts have done.
"Just spittin out words to see where they splatter."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Houndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 1:17am
My two cents is this.
If you feel the employees of your school district are qualified to carry firearms. Then go the extra step of making them deputies of the county they teach in. Give them the same amount of training that you give to your Sheriff deputies. Then I am comfortable allowing them to carry a firearm around my daughter.
But I will also explain to my daughter that these individuals are not unlike anyone who carries a gun. A dangerous individual, who should always be looked upon with apprehension. No matter what title you give to a person, if they carry a firearm, they are person who can end your life at any moment. And should be viewed as such.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Respector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 12:06pm
And so is any person who doesn't carry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Houndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 3:35pm
You are correct. Thanks for extending my point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 17 2013 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Houndog Houndog wrote:

My two cents is this.
If you feel the employees of your school district are qualified to carry firearms. Then go the extra step of making them deputies of the county they teach in. Give them the same amount of training that you give to your Sheriff deputies. Then I am comfortable allowing them to carry a firearm around my daughter.
But I will also explain to my daughter that these individuals are not unlike anyone who carries a gun. A dangerous individual, who should always be looked upon with apprehension. No matter what title you give to a person, if they carry a firearm, they are person who can end your life at any moment. And should be viewed as such.

According to Edgewood’s policy, the administrator who wants the training must first be authorized by the school board. They then must obtain a concealed carry license from the state. If they already have that license, they must also have basic peace officer certification from the Ohio Officer Training Academy, or 20 years of experience as a law enforcement officer.

Basically, I do not think it will happen....First ,which admin is going to pull $5000 to $10,000 from their own pocket and have time to take the classes. Second how will they maintain their cert. afterwards....So basically the county will have to get involved making them a special deputy or whatever...Smoke and mirrors ...Move on , sounded good on paper.....But then Reality hits .............



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 2:44am
Originally posted by ClarkWestern1 ClarkWestern1 wrote:

Well, we haven't had anyone try to make a hood ornament out of our police within a couple miles of our high school but other than that I'd bet Edgewood and Monroe are similar security-wise. And whether you agree or disagree with the policy allowing TRAINED administrators to carry firearms I guess my response is "At least they're doing SOMETHING" Sitting around saying we should have officers in every school when the budgetary reality is that ain't gonna happen is useless. Chances are we may never get anyone to get the required training  or want to carry-but the fact that the board was actually able to put something concrete on the table is more than most districts have done.


Cities and schools are clearly struggling with how to fund existing operations today, let alone adding more to them. Why? Because of the funding reductions the state has made. Suzi Rubin is absolutely correct on what happened. This was not the local governments being unwilling to manage their own budgets. In the 1950's, the smaller cities and townships were trying and failing to collect income taxes, administratively. They were just too small to do so.

The state stepped up and said "We will collect them for you, and distribute them to you, as we can do a lot better job of it than you can." And in an action that should surprise no one, in the years following, the state found more and more reasons to keep the money in Columbus, and not return it to the townships and cities at all. But never has it been as bad as today, with what Kasich has done. And before anyone suggests that Suzi and I are fellow Democrat liberals, wanting to spend, spend, spend, while she may be one, I certainly am not, instead a life-long Republican, but becoming more and more libertarian as the years roll by, as I am convinced that both Republicans and Democrats can't get a grip on things.

Clark, cities will rightfully point out that putting a police officer in the schools should be funded by our schools. And school districts will rightfully say that the funding should be provided by the cities, as putting an officer in the schools should not be funded by them, as it is not about education, so much as crime and violence that could occur by students and  non-students alike. Last year Monroe Police Chief acted, putting an officer in the schools at city expense, and today it is a shared expense. So contrary to your thoughts Clark, Monroe has a fully trained police officer in our schools, and are not depending on a hope an a prayer that nothing bad will happen.

So Monroe citizens, when you see Chief Homer out around town, tell him you appreciate his support of the schools. And when you see Fire Chief Centers, tell him you appreciate his support of the schools, such as putting fire and EMS teams at last week's school's bonfire.

As for things the city could do to help make our children's lives even safer, extending Salzman Road
would be my highest priority. That would get the truck traffic off Yankee road, especially the large propane trucks in the winter, that have to share Yankee Road in front of the school with our student novice drivers. Clark, you asked for concrete ideas? That one is literally a concrete idea, pun intended.
Tom Birdwell - Opinions written here are mine alone, and may not reflect the views of other school board members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 5:31am
Originally posted by Houndog Houndog wrote:

My two cents is this.
If you feel the employees of your school district are qualified to carry firearms. Then go the extra step of making them deputies of the county they teach in. Give them the same amount of training that you give to your Sheriff deputies. Then I am comfortable allowing them to carry a firearm around my daughter.
But I will also explain to my daughter that these individuals are not unlike anyone who carries a gun. A dangerous individual, who should always be looked upon with apprehension. No matter what title you give to a person, if they carry a firearm, they are person who can end your life at any moment. And should be viewed as such.



Houndog, I hear the cynicism in your answer, but others who don't know you might not. Give them the same training that sheriff deputies get? Before their first day as an officer they get 5 months of full time training. But that is only the start. They ride along with a senior officer for up to 6 months after that. Only then are they trusted out alone.

In times of very limited school funding, there is absolutely no way that a small school district would fund that. At most it would be something like the 12 hour concealed carry training offered in Ohio today. And in case that non-gun people believe it is sufficient, most of us that are gun advocates consider that training to be a joke. It is what in GE we called 3 hours of training, crammed into a 12 hour period. I have never been more bored, more disgusted in my life. Nearly all of that is classroom time. The time spent actually learning to shoot, or demonstrating your competence with a gun is quite minimal.

There was a woman in my class that must have been 80. She was tiny, perhaps 90 pounds at most, and had the big coke-bottle cataract glasses. I don't frighten easily, but I was shall we say a bit concerned when standing next to her at the firing line. She spoke with her hands as much as her voice, with the gun being waved all over as she spoke. When she talked about her fears, that someone broke into her neighbor's house and that she would be next, she got especially agitated, waving the gun around with particular emphasis, making me ever more concerned that I might not live to ever see my permit.  Twice I felt it necessary to gently push her gun so that it was pointed in the general direction of the targets. Someone had sold her a big revolver, I can't remember if it was .357 or .44, but each time she shot it, it would almost rock her back off her feet.

To quality on the shooting part of the concealed carry license, you only have to hit the target a minimal number of times from a very short distance. I brought the wrong magazine for the 9mm gun my daughter was to fire with, so she and I fired with my .45, At Butler Tech, you have to fire their ammunition in their range (low lead primers to avoid breathing lead)  And since it was a Saturday, the instructor could not get more from the locker. Thus she and I shared the ammunition for my .45, giving us half the ammunition everyone else had, and we had half the rounds left when we knew we had qualified. You have to be a REALLY bad shot not to pass.

But despite all of that, it still not my major concern. School teachers and administrators should be focused on education. It is more than a full time job. There is just too great a chance that a student will end up with that gun, and do horrible things with it. A fully trained police officer, with street experience is needed. And that is what Monroe has.
Tom Birdwell - Opinions written here are mine alone, and may not reflect the views of other school board members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:07am
@ TomB , 
Just curious what keeps an unruly child from taking the gun from anyone, whether they are a police officer or an admin ....? 
I would hope and think our school admins have check and balances in place to identify and target schoolchildren who would do horrible things with a gun should they ever attain one...After all, I do not think a child wakes up in the morning and decides to kill classmates or teachers without having exhibited some outward signs prior...........

But then again , most of society only dwells on the negative. The positive is too boring. 

Did you know Ohio has funding for gun safety classes in schools......Has had it around for some time. 

Education not fear is the key .............All my children can shoot and have gun safety skills. My youngest girl (10) took an interest in reloading.........Beats me, but I will let her deprime and size brass all day long...

But also back on subject..........I myself did have an adjustment on my EDC storage while home.......When my girls started babysitting for others, more and more friends of my children coming over , I was no longer comfortable with my EDC unless it was on my body or locked up....

I would think an Admin in a school has enough sense to address the possibility that a child might try to procure their weapon and they should maintain control of the gun at all times.... After all , they still have their wallet at the end of the school day...I would venture to say theft is more problematic than gun violence in schools.....

There are no qualifying classes or permits required to open carry a firearm in Ohio, the CCW courses are only there to verify you can safely handle and use your gun.....Just a political farce, to pacify the ignorant. 

Afterall we, the children and others pass within 3 feet of death or serious injury everyday hundreds of time while riding a bus, driving a car, or riding in a car....What would happen should a child procure a bus and drive it thru the school?  A child with RoadRage drives their own car thru a crowd , We going to ban buses/cars from the grounds?

 Society looks more at negatives than positives for different actions, once the positives start out pacing the negatives then only will an action become more acceptable and unquestioned.

Or "BIG MONEY" gets behind the movement...........Children at 16 Yo driving cars is big money, there are more deaths from car accidents involving children than gun accidents involving children........BUT the Insurance lobbyists and tax man would cry if they tried to ban children under 21 from driving..........Imagine the revenue decrease at local stores, road tax revenues and loss of insurance premiums if the driving age was raised to 21yo, which is supported by studies to be safer................

There is a greater chance a child driving will have an auto accident causing death or injury to another than ending up with a gun from an admin and do horrible things.




 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 7:11am
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/11/16/loc_wwwloc1gun.html

"We teach sex education, we teach drug education - I think it's appropriate that we also teach gun safety education," Grendell says.

Ohio thus becomes the first state to fund gun safety education in public schools. This month, all 612 Ohio school superintendents were notified about the two-year, $40,000 pilot program, which will cover the cost of the National Rifle Association's Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program, designed for pupils in K-3.

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96091&page=1&singlePage=true

The Department of Education agrees that relying solely on education is not the answer.

“In schools the only thing that works to stop gun violence is some education combined with intervention, counselors in every school, parents getting involved, teachers being trained and involved and so on. Education is no silver bullet. It’s not really proven to work at all,” said Melinda Maliko, a department spokesperson.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Houndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 10:53pm
It all comes down to the fact that we have come to fear calling anyone 'crazy', or 'insane', or 'deranged'.
As a nation, we can no longer institutionalize anyone. Whether it be due to monetary restrictions or a crippling fear of offending someone. Therefore we must endure mass shootings. Plain and simple.
People with mental problems who then find ways to obtain firearms will continue to kill people.

But, mark my word, no time in the near future will we address any of these problems. Instead we will blame 'access', not 'intent'.

The reason that mass shootings were not as prevalent forty years ago is due to the fact that we, as a nation, were not afraid to admit that some people should not be allowed to roam freely, at large.
In the near past, firearms were not only more affordable, but also, more accessible. Therefore, both of those arguments are out the window.

It makes me fighting angry everytime some brainless talking head on the television says the word 'motivation'. Do they not hear the words coming out of their own mouths? There is no motivation for what these people do. Not now, not ever.
The greatest tragedy of situations such as Sandy Hook, is the fact that the perpetrator doesn't just kill themselves first. Therefore not causing the unneeded pain of ending innocent lives.
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Soft language. Haha.

Max, if ever you want to have a beer, let me know. One way or another. 

Negative cash flow situation, Haha.

Disinformation.

Sunshine units.

Freedom fighters.

Hearing impared.

Learning disorder. Minimally exceptional.

Bloodless. Lifeless.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Houndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 11:31pm
Carlin made more sense than any politician that our nation ever put forth.
I know we are supposed to bow at the feet of the Washingtons, Adams, Jeffersons, Franklins.
But I'll take old Mr. Carlin anyday.

They may have been more intelligent. But Mr Carlin was far more honest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Max HC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 18 2013 at 11:40pm
I love how uncomfortable Horrace Cooper gets! Calm down Horrace! It's like having a conversation at any bar here in Monroe, sad really...
 
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If nothing more, I know this.
No woman has ever been made of no man.
At least not of me. Haha.
Five eight, barrel chested barrel belly.
I've never been good enough to ever keep around.

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A free beer to the first person to come up with the artist who wrote that line.

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